The LogoSauce Blog
Improving quality with Kharma
We recently disabled our first member for comment abuse.
Unfortunately there is a not a lot we can do about this sort of abuse other than respond to complaints from fellow members.
We’d rather not disable member accounts – but let the community work it out – however we also want to look after our regulars who are doing good work.
We can make changes to the way we value ratings and comments from members. We’ve been looking at what other web apps do and are considering using some sort of “Kharmic” rating.
This is where a member who has already achieved some sort of level of participation/respect/value is granted more power in rating others.
Another way to look at this is that we value the rating and comments on one member over another’s based on pat performance.
We can do this by awarding each member profile a rating in addition to a rating for each design submitted and then to use that rating as a factor in scoring a particular comment/rating by that member.
This might as simple as showing a members rating against his/her name OR it might mean increasing the points awarded to a design when a highly rated member votes.
Ranking of a profile is actually already done to an extent – with total score for each profile – based on total rating of all the members logos. What else can we do to enhance this simple rating of a member.
For example – we may insist on a member completing a full profile before they achieve voting status. Or they may have to get a total score of 100 or more to be AND complete a full profile to reach voting status.
This all sounds kinda complex. We’re keen to keep the application simple but also want it to be fair to members.
Let us know what you think.
By Digger over 4 years ago.
Comments:
I can understand the sentiments by Davidoff – but hiding final design entries may result in lower quality logos for competition founders. It’s tough on originators of new ideas but by allowing designers to feed off each other – we get better final results – don’t we?
I agree with Davidoff on that you should prohibit voting to own logo; for that matter, you should separate voting and leaving comments, allowing you to rate/vote a logo only once and allow multiple commenting. On another note, I also notice al ot of entries on varying background colors, textures, etc. While that’s all nice and good, it might be more beneficial to the competition holder to have all entered entries on the same background color / canvas. Just a thought.
I belive you have to earn the right to vote by at least having 5 or 6 logos in your own portfolio, it’s nice and very helpful to have a comment left from one of the top scoring members as you know it’s the opinion of a talented designer, someone who has no logos and no points could be someone with no experience and have no clue about design and you’ll have these comments scattered about your portfolio which clients may have access to.
toon makes a very good point.
I believe that the system this either, and also the this or point of view and the comntario of people without experience. Our clients do not have experience and are really those that choose. they do not create it thus? aprobecho also to agredecer this space that offers us to the designers. A good idea logo willow! pardon by the errors but I speak little English.
What about getting feedback from potential customers who are not designers – and who after all are often the paying customers.
All consumers are exposed to design and brands almost every waking minute of the day. Most members of the public therefore – already have a built in ability to recognize good design – not just designers.
Do you really want to limit review/comment/voting to only designers? Is this an elitist approach?
Or can we trust visitors to the this site to have some intelligence about design and recognize the good designs. Ultimately they will choose a designer based on what they personally like rather than be overly influenced by comments, in my view.
If we give designers (highly rated ones), through a Kharma system, the power to award a lot more points to good designs – isn’t this enough to ensure that the good designs and designer rise in the ranks.
With regards to Toons idea: Do you think if we allowed everyone to vote but only established users with a certain kharma rating to comment would work?
p.s. I think we already don’t count votes for ones own designs. But I’ll check.
I think the voting is ok as it is …. as in the end unless i am mistaken the client chooses the final logo so the voting is only usually an indication unless the client just uses the votes as his only means … did i confuse myself there… The Kharmic rating is a good idea but i think this should pend on your portfolio and then your creating in some way a very clicke regime since how do you judge who has karma…. i think one vote , multiple comments since thats how you attract more responses to the site and encourage a more forumic approach which may lead to more discussion.
or it struck me … weird idea which you may laugh at … is that the logos go up and say a week before close designers who have entered get kharmic points … since we are all professional and willing to be judged among our peers … makes us all accountable….
hope that made sense
heheh or in competition phase … the logos go up … and then the client picks his fave 10 or so … and they go to ballot ….
constant visits to the gallery and then … added interest in the cream of the crop … unless a logistical nightmare….damn the twilight hour :) sorry if i splurged nonsense
I believe clients should not be influenced by polls of this nature when selecting their new logo.
Just an idea for the competition section. Why not make all the ratings invisible. So, you rate,vote, comment, and at the end of the competition then all the ratings are reveal. And even the one who started the competition doesn’t get to see the rating. In a way, everybody get an equal chance and the voting won’t influence the competition starter. What i mean is that when you go in the competition section you see only the coments. Just my cents worth :)
dache/thisiscarene – if we did not show the score – how would you want the entries sorted – by Most Recent entry? Alphabetically ?
i would sort it out by most recent entry. The faster you can design a good logo, means the more effective you are. It’s a competition anyway, can treat it like a race :)
moon : sound good to me – any other takers?
To recap:
- don’t show score on competition pages (although still attributes to profile and score will be visible when viewing a logo detail or from a profile.
- Sort competition entries by submission date when viewing entries under a competition.
I don’t agree with moon about the sentence “The faster you can design a good logo, means the more effective you are”.
Firstly because this is just a website, not our job. So it means people are not here everyday or everyhour and could read the competitions days before other people sent their designs.
And secondly, because there’s a lot of people who think its enough to make a logo with a pretty typeface and nice colours. Yeah, it could be nice as a logo, but maybe its not the perfect one for the “client”. What I mean is that sometimes we forget about the meaning of a logo.
sorry if my english was too bad :)
I say sort randomly.
That’s why its mention GOOD logo. It didn’t mean any logo. And who says you can’t design a good/excellent/nice/etc..in very little time? It all depend on your ability and creativity. It also acts as a training for your own sake. You work faster, better revenue, isn’t it right?
If i’m not wrong, this website is kind of a hobby for all. You are doing stuff on your own sweet time. Sure you give your best everytime you are designing something, that’s what we, designers do. Anyways… i don’t mind sorting it randomly like what dache says. It’s a good idea also.
moon is kind of right, but for each and every one to have equal chance i’ll go for random sortings.
I think .. the answer is a mish mash of all of the above … “The faster you can design a good logo, means the more effective you areâ€. lol you’ll devalue not only the competition but the client value … i personally think you need to encourage more interaction from the client …. the voting is poll by the designers … one would think its an opinion to the client thats it … why not have the client offer feedback via the logos he otganises via a top ten as suggested above … or top 5 … to be honest the voting is moot thus the scores are moot and to treat it as a race, please DONT devalue my craft.
If that works for you fair enough but hey the only way to move forward with sorting or a standing is via client interaction … OTHERWISE i dont actually see the point in voting apart from an ego thing with all the designers …
I don’t really agree with you mockup. You are living in a competitive world right now. Imagine a design company which has a fast turn around time? You’d have more clients, more briefs to express your creativity, etc.. i’m not devaluing anything here mate and i’m really sorry if you guys felt offended. Everybody has their own pace,ability and creativity as i said before. But hey! we are just throwing ideas and opinions to improve this great site. I like the idea of involving the client. I thinks it’s a great way to go about doing this.
Your right about a competititve world but how does that effect the work your doing. See my question to you would be how do you conceptualise a logo or a brand. What your point relates to is a logo something which you can go to any 2 bit outfit for, to conceptualise a brand will put you on another level.Clients value quality above haste and how can you justify a fee if you crank something out … thats what im saying about devaluing a craft, that attitude will keep us with the pc user who has a desktop program.
i’ll give you an example of what i was trying to tell you. You know the game console xbox 360? it came out before the playstation 3 right. And who got the best part of the pie? Microsoft xbox because it came out first. Now, does that mean that the xbox is no good because it came out first? of course not, o contraire! Getting out something fast doesn’t mean the quality is bad yeah. And talking about creating brands, name me one brand who was a big hit when it first started? You build a brand over time, not over night buddy. The first step of building a brand is to get the name out as fast as possible so as the public can see it before other brands comes out. When the new logo is out there, then you start to build on the brand, not before mate. You can always tell the different between a designer and a pc user who has a sotfware. The thought, the quality, the creativity, color combi, etc.. is there. Nowadays clients value both haste and quality. I’m sure you’ve experience those situations of tight deadlines.
:) looks like that’s going to go on and on and on dude..
i like ps, but i shifted to xbox..not really loyal but sometimes impatience can get the better of you :) so, just to say that i’m an example of a customer that prefers to have his stuffs fast. You are the opposite, therefore no argument on this one :)
ok, think of the coca-cola brand, or even nike, or even addidas..what happen to those brand when they first started, and why are they where they are now? now if you compare coca cola to a new soft drink brand, which one will most likely be chosen? coke of course. That’s because it was first to come out..and it has build a brand that is worldwide recognise. It took years of building to reach that status. You can argue that nowadays the branding process is different, more research is being done, etc…but at the end of the day, who is the judge? it’s the customer, the public. So, if they see something first, that’s register in their brain. Take for example again, playstation 1..it came out before the xbox series. That’s why you are hook on playstation, you saw it first..i’m i not right? :)
I don’t think its about devaluing yourself. It think its more about when you fall, you get up stronger. There will always be a competitor. I see it as feeding each other..that’s why if you come out 1st with a revolutionary brand, then you are most likely to succeed.
I’m not saying that when you rush out something you don’t think about the future. Of course the future is important..but i feel the getting the brand out 1st on the market is more important. It’s like when you are born, you are still a piece of meat. You don’t know anything and as the day goes by, you learn, you grow, etc.. i think that’s a good metaphor :)
I’m sure very little client will tell you “nice!you nail it the first time” and pay you. You are very lucky if your client are all like that. Most of them will say “nice, BUT….”. Even if the process was long and thoughful, at the end of the day, it’s the client who decide..or even the client’s wife may have a say :) everybody has their own ego and thoughts and style and taste, i’m sure you know what i’m talking about :)
That’s a long essay man!! but enjoyable :) good branding exercise :)
hmm..good question. We got off about creating a logo, shifted to branding, then back to creating logoz..lol..
Anyway, i agree that the niches are getting smaller and smaller. What if your thoughtful process in the end doesn’t make the breakthrough in the market. Wouldn’t that be a waste of time/effort? and let say you’ve done something fast (with thought behind it) doesn’t make it neither. Which one is more worth it? I believe its the “fast” one. But you may say otherwise :)
I think you wrongly understood what i was trying to say. I didn’t say that you just get something out fast just for the sake of getting it out. I was trying to tell you its the same process as what you said, but faster. Some people think at lightning speed, and their work is equally nice and strong as the ones who work slow. Slow is inappropriate here, maybe normal should be the word :)
How long did chanpion take to come up with this superb logo? I believe its 1-2 days. And did the client agree on it straight away or did he said something like need some tweaking here and there? Nohting is perfect even if you wanted it to be :) My 7 logos are all kind of different directions and treatment. The competition brief was quite brief, that’s y you need to explore what’s the best direction. When somebody ask you to design a logo, you give options right? then when the client sees it, he chooses one, then you further develop it… i’m i not right? same thing is happening here. I had only 3 different direction that i thought work at first. But when comments started pouring in, i know i had to improve it. You won’t get something 100% right at 1st go. There will always be this 1% chance that you need to change something..like i said, nothing is perfect :)
You are right, there’s a lot of logos out there that’s just pretty on the eye (no offence to others who are reading this). I agree with you that quality bar has to raise here, but efficiency bar as well. The requirement should be visually nice, strong concept behind, professionally executed and in the least amount of time :) i’m just saying what i feel should be the way forward and this does not apply to everybody :) my personal opinions yeah.
Of Course you are designing for today and tomorrow. BUT you can only do this much nowdays..most of the things has already been invented, markets are saturated. The brands of today, in this era, our era :), is just the improvement of what has already been done before. Same goes to design. Example: You design a logo for a flower shop, 1st thing that comes to mind, is flowers, bouquets, right? Then you create a stylize flower, 2 colours maximum, add some leaves to it to enhance, and voila.. nice logo, this new flower shop is a success. And one day, you went to Dubai, i’m refering to myself right now :), and there’s this flower shop banner that uses flowers and leaves a bit similar to what i did before. And lets say it was created way before i come up with the one i did. I didn’t copy it, never seen it before. What i’m trying to say is that there’s no more uniqueness, there’s this thing call improvement. And in today world, improvement, means uniqueness. Personal opinions again :)
Logosauce is an experimental playground i find. Design is fun, and here you get the chance to mix and match, use unconventional ways to create, etc.. People who are posting competition are expecting fresh new stuffs of course.. it may seem new, fresh, UNIQUE. But in the end, it’s just something that’s been done before but maybe there were some little improvement to it. That’s it. Not that i’m discouraging new designers or even experience ones..you guys can still make things better of course! i think i went a bit off track just now :)
I agree that a 2sec logo won’t work here or anywhere else for that matter. But a 2sec logo with great concept and visual will definitly hit the people who sees it. Sometimes you just can not be allowed to be left behind.
Ah..ha..good point about the word of mouth thing. Cheap way to advertise, free way i must say.. but if you don’t get it right at 1st, all can go wrong fast. People are easily influence sometimes, and that’s why we have a job right now. we, designers, are the ones who create style, taste, action, reaction, ways people think, etc.. we kind of are creators cum leaders for other people in other sectors :)
So, i’ll end in a quote by myself :) “Without designers, the world wouldn’t be where is it now.” :) it sounds kind of stupid, but i think it may be true :) hope i didn’t offend anyone around here.. and i apologize if i did.
kaimere, there’s no right or wrong like you said.. just different opinions :)
haha..a barter state would be a disaster dude! lol..
At last we have come to a conclusion. There’s really no right or wrong. Just different thoughts and opinions yeah.
Here is where you let your creativity run wild i find. It’s like in the school/uni days, you get to do things that you want and like. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. But at the end of the day, you are still creating stuffs. And you are among your peers here, it’s still a design community even though, like you said, its kinds of exploits us. But to me, i like creating stuffs, so i don’t mind here. I kind of like it actually :)
Just thought I’d pitch in here too guys.
Competitions were certainly not meant to exploit designers when we decided to add this feature in. In fact competitions were an after thought.
However Competitions have become more important to users (and really interesting) as time has gone on.
I think you just have to see it for what it is – a forum for ideas and a place where you can show your ideas and art to an interested group of people. You get a profile and exposure to people you may not have otherwise. If you are lucky you might also pick up cash rewards. It’s a bit of a lottery – but you have to play to win.
If we start worrying too much about hanging on to our ideas as sacrosanct property then there would be no growth, no evolution. Sharing ideas is important as is evolving current thinking.
Open source and Creative Commons are two phenomenoms that illustrate how powerful sharing ideas can be. This website (and many others today) is possible because we can use other peoples ideas and ip through the use of open source software and the through the willingness of users to participate.
hey kaimere, nowadays, all the young and fresh grad will surely copy from those books or even other designers. That’s how they start, we started, by copying…that’s why you kind of got rip off. like i said, nothings is new, it’s just improvements, innovations. But i understand where you’re coming from.. some people will just copy it as it is.. this is wrong. if you want to copy, then you need to improve it. make it 200% better.
let’s have some fun here mate! :) creativity and design is meant to be fun. We should be grateful to be in this field, we are not working for a living, we are having fun :)
Digger: sharing ideas is ok, but not stealing or photocopy. If some people want to use others ideas, they should ask permission unless the owner says you can use it for free (like open source,etc..). You need to be honest and professional in what you do. The new option of emailing will be quite good here. Users will be able to communicate with others much better.
Agree with the last comment by Moon…. but I don’t see any “stealing” or “photocopying” here
Digger, I see the profile ratings have changed. does this mean the “kharma” rating is in affect? If so, I notice subcircle’s rating has moved him up in a top spot, though many of the logos he uploaded are not his, but well known popular logos. Will this not be taken under consideration as anyone can upload a popular logo to simply get views and increase their rating?On the same subject, should the “web 2.0” profile even be included in the rankings list as it’s just a “dummy” account? just curious
From my point of view. - Only WIP must be displayed - Final entries have to be hidden until the end of contest. (We can see a lot of logos inspired by others) - Prohibit voting to own logo - Allow several comments (actually limited at 1) - Voting after closing contest only