The LogoSauce Blog
Clients picking their own designs
We’ve recently had a lot of discussion about clients uploading and selecting their own designs in competitions. This has been allowed by competition rules, where a client is unable to select a design they like as a winner.
Logosauce is now established enough that prospective clients can see the quality of design and incredible results achieved with logo design competitions. This wasn’t the case when we started and when that rule was established.
We’re proposing to change that rule so that clients must select a winner come what may, and can no longer upload and select their own design.
Let the discussion commence…
By Digger over 7 months ago.
Tags: competitionissues
Comments:
great new rule digger!!!!!!!
That sounds like a good new position/rule to me, with my one concern being how will you prevent it from happening anyway?
I like the idea as well. However, I wouldn’t want to give the comp. holder the impression that if he isn’t quite satisfied with the chosen design, that the prize money means the designer will make unlimited modifications to the design without further compensation. Also, the comp. holder should be prepared to provide specific feedback.
I like the thought, but I agree with Steve: how are you going to stop them doing it anyway? The comp. holder can make 2 paypal accounts, have 2 different e-mail addresses… if they’re desperate enough they can use two different computers (libraries, internet cafes etc).
Also, it may be an idea (to encourage potential clients) to have an ‘examples’ page (say) on the homepage, and have a list of some of the best winning logos displayed there. Just so that the client doesn’t have to delve into competitions > winners. Just my ten pence :)
Love how the site is evloving, keep it up Digger! Any idea when we’ll be out of beta?
the guy from moovers just picked his own…..again it happens. I’m sure this falls under the old rule though, sine the comp. started before the new rule was put in. Do these people not realize what a steal they’re getting for $250??? If they went out and hired some firm to make them a new logo it would cost much more than that! And still they disrespect…..
Digger, it’s a good idea to change that rule. I think another good idea is using a sort of karma or a sort of minimum ranking for a competition (using for example the “Total Rating”) : before compete, a designer must show to the community some designs and obtain a minimum ranking level (With that rule, you can also propose to client differents levels of quality, and different competition fees of course… )
The client of the Moovers competition even specifically emailed me when his competition started promising both extra money and future work if I entered and he picked my logo. He greatly encouraged me to enter his contest in the beginning. It is very disappointing and both unethical of him to do such things and then to screw over all the designers by picking his own design. I am a firm believer in “what comes around, goes around” so I’m sure he’ll get his one day.
On another note, there are quite a few competitions that have yet to have a winner declared. Can you not put a max time limit on how long someone has to choose a winner? I mean it’s just getting out of hand. I also still think month long contests are absurdly long. Digger, sorry to say, I’m to a point now, that unless things change on these issues, I will no longer be participating on logosauce. It’s just not worth it.
@Digger, I forgot to mention that I have sent you a few emails now about how I have NOT received payment for the hockey Team tattoo competition I won. I understand you are quite busy, but the competition has been over for quite some time now. Please pay me as soon as you can. Thanks!
Paul (onesummer) said: Digger, sorry to say, I’m to a point now, that unless things change on these issues, I will no longer be participating on logosauce. It’s just not worth it…
Abit harsh don’t you think Paul? You made it sound like a job ;^) Please lets not forget everyone, that this is a FREE site and that it was originally conceived on the basis of a free to participate portal allowing designers all over the world to showcase and discuss about their logos. The competition aspect is just a PART of it. Being a site aimed at the design community, we should embrace the fact that there are great sites such as these (which aren’t many) for us to participate on a free daily basis. I know for a site like Logosauce to improve and expand requires the support from amateur to professional designers and we should as a community provide that support.
We all know what has eventuated in the last several weeks so lets stop posting again and again on why this situation is bad. Lets all think about HOW to solve this problem and put a little more than 2 cents in. I know some of you (including myself) has taken more than that out.
Thanks Chanpion
Current clause in the rules:
“You MUST CHOOSE A WINNER at the end of the competition. If you are not happy with the entries and cannot choose a winner – you may extend the competition – or may upload your own design to select BUT you must choose a winner.”
New proposed rule
“You MUST CHOOSE A WINNER at the end of the competition. You have 7 days after the end of the competition to select a winner. Failure to select a winner after 7 days will result in the forfeiture of your prize money and it will be awarded at the discretion of Logosauce. You may not award prize money to a relative, employee, related company or related person. In some circumstanaces you may ask that your competition is extended at the discretion of Logosauce.”
"You may not award prize money to YOURSELF, a relative, employee, related company or related person. In some circumstances, and at the sole discretion of Logosauce, a request to extend the competition may be granted.”
I don’t think “yourself” needs to be in all caps. I just used the caps above so you’d notice I added it. Thanks Digger for taking care of all this. It’s appreciated.
I’m thinking that maybe 7 days isn’t quite enough, especially if there were designs submitted at the very end. Maybe 14 days would be more reasonable. That give the comp. holder time to have meetings, get some field feedback, etc. What does everyone think?
great rule, but 7 days is a little short specially if the logo was for a company and needs to be approved by a number of people, as Leah said 14 days would be more reasonable.
“Abit harsh don’t you think Paul? "…”this is a FREE site…"
@chanpion, maybe so, and I am quite aware that this site is free for us, as well as free of ads, and I’ve many, many times over thanks Digger for providing such a site free of charge. I’m in great appreciation of him for this. I’m also very glad he’s addressing this issues quickly.
And there are, in fact, other sites are that offer very similar things as logosauce, also free of charge. One of which I’ve been a part of long before logosauce was born, which does screen designers, does have rules about payment, contest lengths, and choosing a winner.
I agree with the others, 14 days should be short enough for us, but long enough for the contest holder.
14 days it is then. Onesummer – I’ll check the comp in question.
I agree with Santy on ability to enter competitions. Most of you know I brought up a specific idea of how submitting could work that I posted as a comment on the YesBut logo. For those who didn’t read my suggestion about 4 days ago, here it is:
“I personally think that a designer should have at least 30 logos in their portfolio before they are able to submit to a competition. This way, LS gets more logos and we (hopefully) won’t get duped by someone uploading just one logo. It would also be great for a new designer to be endorsed by at least three veteran designers on LS before they can submit. I know this sounds very police, but I’m not sure what else you can do.” This may be the best solution for people of trying to submit their own logo by requiring veteran endorsement.
As for a client choosing a logo and still having the designer make changes….I think since they’re getting so many great logos anyways, it should be maybe one or two minor changes after a selection. I also like the 14 days for choosing and the forfeiture of money after.
Digger, you’re doing a great job for something that seems to be growing so fast. I commend you for hanging in there.
I also wanted to address the comment that cuek21 made regarding other design firms marking up the logo work when they hold a competition for their client(s).
My comments on this is that there should be a statement when a client wants a logo that they are not allowed to mark up the cost to sell to another individual. There should be damages for this. While most ad agencies do this off-line, I don’t like the idea of a firm doing it here and I believe it’s already been happening. This is why they want full copyrights including derivative and you the artist won’t be able to say you created a logo because of that.
There are most likely many designers who feel the opposite, but I won’t contribute to a comp that strips me of derivative rights.
About making restrictions on who can submit to comps and when… I’d like to speak for the newbies. As someone who started designing logos just shortly before joining Logosauce in September, I have been grateful for the opportunity to participate – even though my experience was not as extensive as many of the other Logosauce designers. I have learned so much here, both through observing and from the generous and encouraging feedback from the other designers. I’ve really used Logosauce as a training ground and I think (at least I hope!) my designs have really progressed over the past months. I can also understand those who feel a person should have a bit of a portfolio before being able to enter the comps. But I think expecting someone to have 30 logos right off the bat is maybe a little too restrictive. Mostly, we want to prevent someone from sigining up for the sole purpose of entering their own competition, right? So maybe the guideline could be that you can’t enter a competition unless you have been a member for at least 30 days prior to the start of that competition. What do you think? Might that work?
@Digger, thanks a ton for taking care of the payment.
I think Leah’s idea is brilliant. And Leah, the ability for even a newb like yourself to get up to and over 30 logos quickly is doable since you are a real artist. But I still like your idea better than mine.
you can’t enter a competition unless you have been a member for at least 30 days prior to the start of that competition. What do you think? Might that work?
what if the comp owner signed up before just to be on the safe side?
I think the one account per ip would be great
Rules updated – see Competition Rules.
Re stand down period before entry in comps , I think 30 days way too long. 7 days perhaps…
“Rules updated..” – they look good to me
I’m not really here nor there on the issue of requring a waiting period for new designers.
But I think toon made a good suggestion (related to preventing “fake”/duplicate accounts) toon said: “Digger cross reference IP logins, I’m pretty sure there’s a ruby plugin that detects multiple logins like the VB one I use on my site, I catch people all the time.”
I think using the backend to programmatically prevent people with duplicate accounts would be the way to go.
I’m not sure, but I think not everyone signs on with the same IP every time. I have a DSL connection and I think my IP address is different everytime I logon. Or? Also, if we went with the waiting period idea, 7 days is not enough to prevent someone from joining just to enter their own comp.
Guys the point is that we now have a rule that says you can’t do it.
There will always be a way to cheat for people who really want to cheat. IP detection will not prevent that nor will just about anything else we do. I’m OK with looking at these things but I don’t want to create a huge complex security IP checking monster either. I’m hoping the risk of forfeiture will dissuade most.
The standown period has merit but we also don’t want to dissuade new genuine designers from joining the fray. 30 days is way too long in the Internet world. We all want instant gratification :-) these days.
Maybe a combination approach along the lines of say “you must have uploaded at least 6 of your own designs OR have been a registered member with at least one design for 7 days or more before the start of a competition to qualify for entry.” may be workable…..but I’m generally against too many rules.
p.s I think we need to remember generally the experience with most clients has been an excellent one. There have been only a few issues and bear in mind these people have been playing by the rules and have technically done nothing wrong. Ethically is different. So I don’t want to bugger up the experience due to a few bad apples.
I’d prefer to see this new rule bed-in and see what happens. Maybe no further action will be required. We’ll see.
Just when I thought comps were slowing down we received 3 new and really interesting design comps this morning. I’ve just approved them – so provided the client fronts up with the prizemoney they’ll appear in the competitions section shortly.
Seeing as though all the regulars are letting off steam -thought I’d add my 2 bob too.
Digger – great job. Site is awesome and a fantastic showcase for designers.
For clients who take longer than 14 days to choose, they forfeit the winnings – I suggest 50% goes to a chosen artwork and 50% goes into Logosauce. (Maybe some of the funds could be used to develop the Logosauce Book?)
Entering competitions. How about this – Designers must have a total rating of 300 + before they can enter a competition. You can only get a high rating from people viewing your logos. This would encourage quality work and more discussion.
Of course every system can be beaten – but the new rules will possibly filter out the time wasters (get ’em, girls), the cheats (yesbut) and the ego strokers (moovers).
how about you approve the winner?
you can tell by the design he will pick, if it’s his or not
I like your idea Digger:
“Maybe a combination approach along the lines of say “you must have uploaded at least 6 of your own designs OR have been a registered member with at least one design for 7 days or more before the start of a competition to qualify for entry.” may be workable…..but I’m generally against too many rules.”
Good ideas there Digger
Off topic, but the blog-link on the homepage is screwed somehow? It’s taking me to a post made over 8 months ago. Was that intended? :-s
But i guess it’s not super important. I haven’t got any ideas on how to combat the problem being discussed in the above posts, but I do like the “you must have uploaded at least 6 of your own designs OR have been a registered member with at least one design for 7 days or more before the start of a competition to qualify for entry.” idea.
Yep – it (blog) somehow got screwed up last night when I posted it. Will fix today – sorry.
Fixed
I think, its good idea the rule to assure the commitment of the client, but i think, nobody wants to pay something doesnt like it… i wonder… what if, the client pay a “symbolic” price if they dont like the logos?? I mean, to recognize the effort and time of the people…
Well, the client is paying for the time vested by hundreds of designers irregardless of getting something they like or not or are going to use or not. Can’t pay “symbolic” when you hire an agency and you still run the risk of not getting what you want/like.
Digger: Awesome work.
From discussion at http://www.logosauce.com/logos/13722
hmmm lots to think about … and I hear you all ,,,, but Felix and YesBut DID act according to the rules. We DO allow clients to submit and pick their own design if they find nothing they like – it is their perogative. Unfortunately in this case the client appeared to be hiding that fact (even if unintended) when they didn’t need to.
The reality is that now I think it’s time to change that rule ( as I previously stated the system has proven that it delivers good design and clients can see that and now be asked and expected to take a risk). So whatever happens the client must pick a winner (even if they don’t want to use the design commercially).
The idea in this instance is that the client picks a winner who they are willing to work with on the commercial design. Where no final design appeals then the client should see the prize money as a starting point with the successful designer. The designer has already invested time in the brand at that point and has a head start on ‘getting the brand’ and a good chance of delivering exactly what the client wants through genuine dialogue.