The LogoSauce Blog

I am so glad RAD is not the norm here.

I go above and beyond for my customers as a photographer and it is that willingness to outperform my competition that often makes the difference.

Why would you want to take a step backward when it comes to pleasing the customer? I am a huge fan of being able to see how the design could be used in the future, THAT IS WHAT SOLD ME ON LOGOSAUCE! To see that there were designers that went Beyond what other Design Sites offered.

Don’t go back Move Beyond the other sites and make LogoSauce Unique. There is a bigger call in the market for a site that offers Basic Small Packages then another “Me Too” Logo Design Site, and make that why the Small Business Owner should turn to LogoSauce.

My 2¢ Kelly

Love Love Love that this Designer went Above and Beyond for a Contest Holder, (Again one of the reasons I chose LogoSauce!) www.logosauce.com/logos/71676

Exact Kelly……wise your comment

Wow, Not sure how to take your comment Kelly (and Esteban)…Actually I AM the norm here. I go above and beyond for my CUSTOMERS in all that I do…Competition makes me more hungry (you can see in my folio, that I have put entries in stationary examples as well). The difference is that these are competitions – We can’t compare this type of “business” to businesses – like yourself – that are already being PAID from clients. We do HOURS and HOURS of work, and most of the time we walk away never receiving a dime or even a “Thank You” for the work we do.

This is called “LOGOsauce” … not “I will design all you want for $250 dollar” sauce. We all should like a logo for what it is, not becauce it can be posted next to an address and phone number or email, on “pretty” paper.

I have been here for 11 months and originally it was all logos, then it seems to have morphed into this complete identity site. If one of our fellow designers posts a stationary package, The only way us designers can “keep up” – is to design one as well – AND ALL WE ARE DOING IS HURTING OURSELVES IN THE END. This is probably the majority of the reasons most comp holders come here – because they see what they can get out of us. I see it all the time in the comps – “what would your logo entry look like on a business card, or a letterhead, or a note card”. All these items cost money, money, money. But if someone can get a new logo and a complete identity package for $250, wow, what a steal!!!

Best, Ray

I agree with you absolutely Ray.

In the world of professional billable logo design, the focus is on the key branding elements, and not how it is presented (which comes once the design has been agreed). I try and keep the presentation down to a minimun on this site, because all of my time goes into doing the actual logo (and you’ll notice that I’ve never won a comp – close, but no cigar yet, hehe).

Good logo design is fundamentally about shapes that work across all media formats without losing integrity. Personally, I feel that some designers concentrate more effort on the elaborate framing of the logo at the expense of the integral design, though not everybody (and some of the stationary ideas are really good, I have to say – but why give it away for nothing?)

There are some great designers on this site, and we all know that putting the right frame on a picture can help to sell it, so what the heck? Do what you do, and good luck. If we’re going to be honnest, there are downsides to crowd-sourcing as well as benefits, and one of them, is that the competetive element means we have to resort to smoke and mirrors to wow the client, rather than focus on the job at hand. Ray is right. For the price offered, we are asked to design a logo, not dance on one foot backwards to give the client stationary packs etc. Whilst in my business, I might go the extra mile for a client, I am not going to feel pressured into doing it with while still pitching for the job.

“That’s why you’ve never won a competition” I hear you say. But,whether I win or not, I put my best efforts into designing logos on this site, not free stationery packs, and if they cannot win on their own merit, then so be it.

Having said that, I agree with Digger, in the sense that it would be impossible to police this, so it makes little difference in the end what anyone thinks. If we all decided not to do it, it would work, but that isn’t going to happen.

Fair play to Ray for sticking up for the designers on this one!

@Digger, I completely agree about not penalizing designers, and have no problems incoporating in-situ designs as long as we, as designers, are compensated fairly in the contest. But for a $200-$300 deal? Not anymore. Best, Ray

I totally agree with Ray and Ferg!!! you 2 have pretty much covered what i would write so i’m not going to repeat whats already being said. i had a “cry” about this a little while ago and what i said would happen has pretty much happened… one of my arguments about this was that it will become expected if it keeps happening

I see this as a in house issue that the designers solve or discuss but seeing as you have chimed in on the discussion i will quote you :)

“To see that there were designers that went Beyond what other Design Sites offered” with all due respect Kelly you have confirmed this… you have decided by the looks of it to choose Logosauce because of this… what is offered? its everything else you get with the logo and all the extra work NOT just a logo which is what is being paid for so i don’t know wether this logo site is any better than the others.. what i mean is you pay for a logo and get a logo whats the difference all the sites have great designers! I also noticed you didn’t go to far ‘beyond’ the minimum prize money either but came here expecting more than any other site…. funny old world isn’t it!!!……. im sorry if i sound rude its not my intention i just type as i think it

A good logo is a good logo wether or not its on flashy cards or shop windows..whatever…. and the logos that have won doing this prob would have won without all the bling so i’m not bitter about the choice of logo!

& to be honest i am a bit dumbfounded that this is being consider to be encouraged… So you would like the designers that have contributed to this site for a couple of years (who however long) now to do MORE WORK for the minimum prize that has not changeed in that time. A logo is a logo but when you would like designers to do a card as well then thats a whole new design its not a matter of placing the logo straight onto a white busi card template.

I know it can’t be policed and i know nothing ever changes here and now i see people hate challenging discussions or questions for that matter but why can’t we get back to basics and if the client request to see it on a busi card then yeah but let them know before the comp opens that it will be extra….. when i work on logos not here but for paying jobs i don’t do all the extras until they have picked there final design so why post the whole package straight up for the first entry…. wouldn’t do it outside so why is here different?

The Soku design comp, the comp holder has picked there top 3 and they all have full stationary sets, yeah they are good logos however why post them straight up with everything…. you can’t tell me by doing this it doesn’t influence the result…. if this is what needs to be done everytime for a logo to be considered then i will not be contributing to the comps anymore as its not what i signed up for so to speak…. and yes you will say ‘who cares leave then’ i am aware that i am just a profile name but thats how i feel and i will express it!!!

cheers Josh

I guess this all comes down to perspective. Where you are in your career. I said before that I am terribly jealous that photographers do not have this option… I think anyone of us starting out would give our eye-teeth to have a competitive place where we could not only show off our work, but also learn from the brilliant work of those who are beyond us in experience.

Rad said… “The difference is that these are competitions – We can’t compare this type of “business” to businesses – like yourself – that are already being PAID from clients. We do HOURS and HOURS of work, and most of the time we walk away never receiving a dime or even a “Thank You” for the work we do.”

I am sure it doesn’t matter, but I have yet to earn from my services… I am building a portfolio, learning from others… and investing a whole lot of time and money into my craft… It is scary what I have spent in the last two years on the gear. I spend a minimum of 40 hrs on the editing of a wedding, forget the shooting. I have volunteered myself and my gear to other photographers to gain the experience, editing all my images and handing them over without pay and watching the other photographer take the credit… In effect I have spent the last year and half trying to get the same experience the designers get from their own homes here at Logosauce! Realizing what my competition offers, has only made me grow! I’ve learned my market.

Hipo said, “I also noticed you didn’t go to far ‘beyond’ the minimum prize money either but came here expecting more than any other site…. funny old world isn’t it!!!……. im sorry if i sound rude its not my intention i just type as i think it.”

I stepped away from a designer I had originally contacted that charged $150 for a logo, a watermark and a background for our photography blog, to Logosauce and asked for the same and increased the amount by $105 dollars. (In fact I invited her to come here and compete.) Pretty fair for someone who has yet to determine what their own work is worth! I only wish I had the option to offer that $255 to at least 4 designers that have really done something exceptional… But I will make sure their names get out to the network of photographers who are looking for the same thing I am. Don’t you worry, they will benefit from their extra effort to please. (Listen, I wont tell you $150 is what you should earn just because that is what I can pay and get work from a respected designer… but why complain then? I am sure Logosauce wont complain if you compete in only the contests that meet YOUR criteria, Problem Solved! YOU HAVE THE POWER to only invest your time in the contests that suit you. This site is Brilliant that way!!)

I really hope Logosauce never comes to a point where it asks for “uniformity”. That seems like such an oxymoron in this business, where everyone wants to be set apart from their competition. It only seems natural that designers would have the same desire.

I guess I am very lucky I came to Logosauce when I did. I just think what happens here at Logosauce is really something special! Thanks Again!

I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand it is nice to show clients the potential of a logo with additional visual items as not all customers can visualise how a logo will be used in different situations but on the other side you could design a great logo but if another designer has shown some impressive additional items this could over shadow the designer who has only submitted a logo.

It’s a good point about the designers making more work for themselves and that if no body did it then there would be less work to do. This would obviously not happen just on a basis of trust between designers so it would have to be an included rule that only logos could be submitted. I do not feel I have been on this site long enough to say what should be done but I do feel it is a shame for the designers that are doing all this hard work.

+1

Complete stationery package wins again – good value (for the contest holder). http://logosauce.com/competitions/955

Of course it is a good value for the contest holder (client); they are getting work for free. At the same time it devalues our work as designers. Maybe this is an opportunity for LogoSauce to include this with a logo contest for an additional ‘prize’?

When you hire an architect to design a home/space, you would ask him to design a separate garage office building at no charge because of your inability to visualize how you would carry the design of the home over into an addition. Would you?

That is the very service we, as designers provide to our clients. So what does it say about how we value our own service if we are willing to give it away for free? I believe for the prizes awarded to the winners, the contest holders are getting a great deal. Quality work for a fraction of what most agencies would do it for, along with the ability to choose from the work of a great number of talented designers. A luxury you do not get with any agency.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

good idea.

I dont think contest holders are trying to take advantage of you by looking at and sometimes choosing the ones with mock ups- we all arent like you and are able to visualize the world with just our imaginations. Sometimes we need a little help. (After all if we had that as a talent, we likely would have been able to design our own logo.)

As a past contest holder, I think some people need to put things into perspective.

The designer (dont know if its ok to name him) of my logo voluntarily did some mock up of business cards so i could see them in use. He’s is completely awesome but I didnt actually use his mock ups. (Sorry. No offense. Was beautiful.) I took them for what they were, an example, not him designing me the actual business cards. However seeing the mockup in the competition really helped me the uneducated customer to know that it was the right logo for my business. Have to admit as well- I would suspect the mock up didnt take that much time- it was just a quick example for visualization. I was really happy with the result of my competition and have been recommending logosauce to anyone who would listen ever since.

They are just mockups- if the contest holder wants what was portrayed in the mock up, dont you think they would be most likely to contact the artist who did it and make any changes to suit their needs? If you want to protect your time investment, only send the logo in the graphic file. Dont send the art file for the mockup? Seems pretty logical to me.

I think each artist should be allowed to say what devalues their own work. And btw, where I am from, I could have purchased a logo here for $150. I came here and paid more because I wanted the competitive format. Of course, $200 would seem little to some, and much to others- after all, not only does each person have their own definition of value, but artists from around the world compete and each of their home currencies are worth a different amount against the US dollar. I agree with Kelly- if you dont like the payout amounts, then dont enter the competition. The choice is the designers.

You need contest holders and artists to make logosauce a success. Not just artists. I suspect a lot of potential contest holders who read this blog would probably be turned off from even going to logosauce. Its not entirely respectful to your contest holders.

I agree with RAD. A good logo should stand on it’s own. Great logos do and are hardly in need of an update in a few years. Look back at the old masters of logo design like Rand and Bass. Simple and thought provoking logos that stood the test of time. When purchasing a logo the client could have no clue as to where it will end up. As designers of these logos its our job to have the foresight to think about the possibility of these designs being reproduced in a number of fashions on a number of applications.

Some of the entries work perfectly on the web, and maybe even in full color stationery, but say it needs to be reduced to one color for an application (btw thanks to Digger for bringing up the black and white logos). That’s when you can really start to see the flaws in some logo designs. When a client sees their costs to produce something with a logo on it triple is when the real cracks in a logo design show.

From a technical standpoint I can see where the difficulty would be, however maybe all that’s needed is a more flexible upload form. For example different uploads for different functions (like full logo full color, one color, and suggested logo application).

Stationary packages aren’t always the best way to go though, since the designer has to shrink the package down to fit into that tiny square when the client is just thinking about the logo. It’s often better to have the logo on it’s own for clarity rather than seeing it tiny next to a letterhead.

@ Teri, there are many sites that simply forbid mock-ups and they seem to get along just fine – a win/win situation for client, designer, and site. There is no risk of being seduced by extraneous elements and possibly overlooking the best of the entries – a plus for the contest holder. Designers can focus more of their attention on the fundamentals – a plus for the contest holder and designer. More designers participate – a plus for the contest holder. The site has a much cleaner overall look – a plus for the site and by extension, the contest holder who will benefit by more designers wishing to be part of it. There is no downside (or disrespect) – when a focus on the most fundamental building block comes first, the best possible outcome will follow. And if you’re having trouble visualizing, that does not mean you cannot get the best logo design. Logosauce admin., other designers, your own advisers, etc. are all available to help you zero in on the best available options.

@Retro.. You clearly do not understand the clientele who use this site. Many would not have the resources you assume everyone has. Again if they had that, they would not be likely to come here?

“seduced by extraneous” elements? No, non visual people unlike you artists want to see how the logo can be used. Again, this does not mean they get more artwork out of their fees. Its just an example to help them visualize! Everyone thinks different than you- we cant all process information the same way.

It is completely disrespectful to the customers. Its kind of arrogant and closeminded.

You know maybe the people winning arent winning because they did mockups but because they, god forbid, listened to the customer and actually tried to respond to their needs? I know in my competition a lot of artists hadn’t even had bothered to read my requirements for the logo. So they weren’t even considered. Listening to the customer in any business is usually the right thing to do.

I am desperately trying to remind myself that there are lots of other artists who compete and win on this site but don’t complain here. But its hard.

LOGO ONLY IS MY VOTE………… go on I dare you!!!! Add value to our industry and only give of what is asked.. and also have more confidence in your logo and not hide it in glossed over backgrounds and effects.. PEACE! : )

@Teri – I guess I must be “arrogant and closeminded(sp)” if you say so – the customer is always right, right (and never themselves disrespectful, of course)? For the record, I’ll repeat that on my part there was no disrespect intended. Nor are we “complaining”, as you say. Rather, we are voicing our opinions in a blog post titled as a question “Logos Only?”, which is clearly soliciting opinions/positions. And while some of them may not agree with yours, they are nonetheless valid. ;)

I vote for logo only.

Can i use the logo’s (that where not chosen) for my portfolio?

Logo only.

I agree…logo only. Your logo should be strong enough to stand alone without the bells and whistles.

@Robbie – Yes, you may use any of your unsold/non-winning works for your portfolio. Generally though, you would identify them as unsold ‘proposals’ or ‘concepts’ or something of the like. In fact, unsold work is a great way to build out a new designer’s portfolio.

Has everyone left the building? Good. Then I’d like to comment. As a newcomer and old-timer as well (first studied Graphic Design in 1977- pre-computer and probably before a lot of you were born)- I think a logo alone is the way to go. I don’t think it takes a great deal of imagination to stick it on a bag or an envelope. It’s the logo that counts, not the placement— the logo should be brilliant— the package should be complementary. I’m new here but before I joined, I found it quite distracting looking through the thumbnails that were all cluttered with everything but a logo on the toilet. As to prices, clients have to remember that a logo is your first line of defense and your best advertisement. Since it establishes your brand, your identity in the world, it is potentially worth a lot more than $200 or so, depending on how far you’d like to project your business. People pay much more just to place a small ad in the yellow pages.

So, logos alone? Yes. Logos are supposed to stand alone, that’s why it’s called a “logo” and not a “package”.

But I think a bigger problem here might be a ratings one. I’m not sure it’s a good idea to have public voting. When one designer wins multiple times, seeing their score naturally turns the heads of the client who opens the next competition, don’t you think? And possibly they would overlook some very fine designs because they want a “winner” to do their logo. Maybe the scoring should be blind and only revealed when a winner has been chosen. That might level the field a bit. That way the client is not influenced by the number of votes, but actually has to chose the design- gasp!- that stands on its own! Imagine that! For IMHO I think a client should know their own brand well enough (and their own mind) to go with the logo that grabs them and works for them. Feedback could be given by the client as to which way the wind is blowing and which way they want it to blow— ie. “I’m seeing a lot of feathers- I hate feathers. Show me some flowers” etc.

These were some of my observations before I even contemplated joining on here so don’t hang me before you know me because it’s possible I’m a little warped from having to do logos with a ruling pen. : ) Take care all.

>>>important topic<<<< ! logo only – I’m 100% with you, Ray!

any ideas how to spread this topic to all designers?

bump…

BUMP again!

check out the first page of the winners section!

I have to say, as a competition creator, I really don’t see the big deal, and I think you all are arguing for nothing!!!

Some of you have said it yourself. The client is paying for a logo, and in the end I think they will pick the LOGO that they like the most. In my opinion it honestly doesn’t matter whether the logo has a high rating, or whether it is presented on a business card or brick wall or whatever.

I think it is great though, if the designer wants to do it, and sometimes it helps the client to be able to imagine it in a certain application, but sometimes the designer has no idea what the client wants to use it for and they are only wasting their time. But if the designer wants to do it anyway to better their odds of winning then it is their own prerogative and that is the nature of a COMPETITION!! I think someone would have to be pretty stupid to just pick a logo because the designer put it on a fancy picture of a business card. It doesn’t change whether the logo suites the client or not.

To me it seems like some of you people are just lazy and frustrated because other people are faster at doing these “stationary packages” than you are. Maybe the reason you aren’t winning the competitions is because you aren’t putting enough effort into it not because of these “stationary packages”. Personally I have a fully functional imagination and I can imagine the logo on a business card myself.

But technology IS changing, and things are getting faster and easier, and there are tutorials for absolutely everything on youtube and almost anyone can buy photoshop and become a designer so ya, maybe it is making all you old-timers do MORE to win a competition but so be it. That is the nature of a competitive market.

I am a music producer and believe me, technology has changed the music recording business too, but it just makes me want to get better to stand out among the rest even if that means adapting and doing MORE for the client. In the end I think if you are passionate about your service and have a talent for it, then the client will be able to tell, no matter what bells or whistles are hanging off of it.

Well I hope this doesn’t make too many people angry but it is just my opinion. Thank you to logosauce and all the great designers for this great opportunity. :)

Matt